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Forum:Content organization
Dejos brought up the issue of properly organizing the various items in the game (Weapons, Artifacts, Shield Mods, Class Mods, Health, etc.) into an Items category and having those things as subcategories of Items. Content organization is definitely an important issue for a wiki, so I'm starting this forum topic as a place for the wiki community to discuss this particular topic (Items) plus another organization topics that arise. So I invite everyone to give your input. For anyone who is familiar with categorizing pages, feel free to create the categories that are decided upon using. If you need any help from me, just say so. I'm quite busy these days, but I'll be glad to help when I can. JoePlay (talk) 21:10, October 15, 2009 (UTC)n POST REALLY RARE ITEMS (AND PREFERABLY IMAGES TOO) AT Legendary ---- Agreed. The site needs some more uniformity and organization. I so far have done some minor work all over common pages, such as the character pages, to make them more uniform. Overall we need to categorize and sub categorize the wiki, make it easy for people to hop in and out when they need help. - XPhoenix777 05:13, October 19, 2009 (UTC) ---- I'm willing to help but I'm totally new to wiki editing so I until I pick it up I'm a little lost. Especially things like how to edit and organize the side menu. Any ideas on how we should go about ordering the flow of content? Items seems pretty straight forward. But we're going to need to start building a quest section, map areas (maps are still getting randomly generated right? so we can only discuss what sorts of things to expect not really give an actual map.) Also Some things like the monsters/aliens/generalmobs I think some things could be put into a main article for a species. For example the Skrags have the fire ones, the alphas, the pups, whatever. those probably don't need their own article just links to a main article about the species in general with sections for each subgroup. does that makes sense? Dejos 13:27, October 19, 2009 (UTC) ---- I have edited wikis before, but just gotta get back into the flow of things. If you look at the fallout 3 wiki or the WoW wiki, you can see how they do organization. As for maps, there is a general map, like main areas (so I assume) just the area in my game is different from the area in your game, aside from major points such as towns and quest related places. Now we need a quest section, probably in the walkthrough area. We also need to start stubbing small articles that need more work, as well as take off all the "?" areas where previous editors just assumed things. I am heading into gamestop this afternoon, I might just buy the strategy guide and we can base some stuff from that and then build on it from the gameplay. Thanks for your help Dejos, looking forward to getting this wiki in tip-top shape. Hit me up on my talk page if you have questions, but check out the wikia help on editing, a GREAT resource to start learning! And Dejos, take a sec to edit your page, so that others can get to know you and possible game with you! - XPhoenix777 14:18, October 19, 2009 (UTC) ---- I think there should not be a main category called "walkthrough" I think Quests should have their own section... ok here's how I see some of the breakdown, we can discuss and edit this as we go along. They should be sorted by importance/relevence Main Categories: News Characters/Classes (there might be a better thing to call this) Quests Levels/Areas Guides Items Vehicles Community Resources And then break things down into sub groups. Guides can have walkthroughs contained in it and such though because of the dynamic sandbox nature of the game I don't think a straight up "walkthrough" is that useful for the game. Alot about the quests is going to depend on how they are implemented in the game. But we should probably try to organize them by area or by quest givers. or something like that. We'll know more tomorrow I guess. Dejos 14:38, October 19, 2009 (UTC) ---- If you want to see some of the game, check this http://www.justin.tv/brandon505 link out. This kid has many hours of gameplay to watch. It will help get intros to characters and such. As far as the main menu editing, I am not sure how to get to that. I think it is admin only, so we need to find an admin to do it or make one of us admin. I do like you ordering, maybe a couple tweaks, but that is a good setup! - XPhoenix777 14:47, October 19, 2009 (UTC) ---- Ok, I asked Joe about it and then I guess we can go from there. I don't know how much relinking and such will need to be done but I think it makes sense to get the basic setup in place before tomorrow. Dejos 15:06, October 19, 2009 (UTC) ---- Cool, well get started on what you think needs work, do your research and I will be in and out all day working on this too! I am going now to see what Gamestop has for guides so I can start filling basic info in when we get pages built. - XPhoenix777 15:13, October 19, 2009 (UTC) ---- Great to see you guys getting the discussion off to a good start! About the sidebar menu, it is controlled by the MediaWiki:Monaco-sidebar file, and yes, you have to be an admin to edit it. Speaking of which, since the user that I made an admin has not edited here since Sept. 21, I would like to promote someone else to the position. Because Phoenix has wiki editing experience, and is a web designer, I just offered him an admin position. If he accepts, I'll make him a bureaucrat, which is an admin that can promote others to admin. A wiki such as Borderlands, that's about a brand new videogame, needs at least one active admin (preferably more), so the bureaucrat can add admins as needed. To respond to Dejos's comment about not having a category named "walkthrough," that's fine, but I strongly recommend to have a page with the name Walkthrough, then you can link to individual quest walkthroughs if you want to break it into sections. The reason for this is because "walkthrough" is a very popular search term for video games, especially new ones. We want our search engine rank to be as high as possible in order to maximize the number of people that see the wiki, not to mention contribute to it. JoePlay (talk) 20:53, October 19, 2009 (UTC) ---- I can completely agree to that. I'm a bit of a classification nerd so putting things into neat and accurate groups is important to me but I completely understand what JoePlay said. and agree. Dejos 21:00, October 19, 2009 (UTC) ---- I forgot to mention the short tutorial for editing MediaWiki:Monaco-sidebar - find it here, along with other customization tips. JoePlay (talk) 21:46, October 19, 2009 (UTC) ---- Well, I am now an admin (bureaucrat) so I can make some needed changes. Dejos, if you are a classification nerd, then by all means edit the pages that need classification and assign them a category. I look forward to working with you and others! - XPhoenix777 23:37, October 19, 2009 (UTC) ---- Good job on the site so far. Just remember to preview things before posting or atleast view it before you leave. A simple double check makes things much much more cleaner and enjoyable to read. Some times I forget to myself. LegendStormcrow 00:10, October 20, 2009 (UTC) ---- Will do. You do the same Stormcrow! Looking forward to seeing your additions and fixes to the site. I have to admit though, I am new to being admin to this wiki, so there are many issues I am fixing and hope you can lend a hand in too. If you see any errors, by all means hit that edit button :) - XPhoenix777 00:19, October 20, 2009 (UTC) ---- As far as organization goes I thought that there should be a subcategory for each of the main weapon types. Pistols, assault rifles, sniper rifles, etc. This is only if we are going to attempt to do any kind of gun listing on this wiki. The pc version should make that easier with the jpg export feature, but it still is a lot of guns. Any suggestions concerning this? - Slyrat 13:14, October 20, 2009 (EST) ---- Slyrat, Great suggestion! You know your way around wikis? If so, start working on that portion! As you can tell this place is in disarray so any help would be awesome! if you start changing categories around it will be reflected in the main menu! - XPhoenix777 17:26, October 20, 2009 (UTC) ---- So the weapon sub-categories are pretty much in place for the existing guns in the wiki. I went more based on gun image than projectile type. Is there any way the menu on the left can show the sub-categories before showing individual pages? - Slyrat 14:34, October 20, 2009 (EST) ---- I can do that, what are the categories of weapons? if you could type the exact name of each category here, I can edit them in. Thanks for doing that! - XPhoenix777 19:24, October 20, 2009 (UTC) ---- Sub-categories for Weapons thus far: Category:Sniper Rifles | Category:Pistols | Category:Combat Rifles | :Category:Grenade Launchers| Category:Shotguns | Category:Melee | Category:Submachine Guns | Category:Rocket Launchers | Category:Alien guns - Slyrat 19:48, October 20, 2009 (UTC) ---- Take a look at the menus now, look like what you wanted? - XPhoenix777 20:07, October 20, 2009 (UTC) ---- Ah, much better. Should make it easier to find and post new weapons. I guess in the future there will be an Items menu which has a Weapons sub-menu. Anyway, cool deal. I'll try to put some more work into this once I actually have the pc version. - Slyrat 21:46, October 20, 2009 (UTC) ---- Ok, so I know there are more Item types than orb shield and Weapons. Isn't there a particular accessory type for each character class? I won't have the game until the 26th so I don't know them very well. I was going to add those categories so that items for those categories can be added more easily. Otherwise once that is in place we might be able to change the main menu to showing Items rather than Weapons. --Slyrat 15:01, October 21, 2009 (UTC) ---- There are elemental artifacts, grenade modifiers, upgrades (to ammo/backpack), ammo, health vials, and quest items (which is key when we start hammering out the quests). I agree to changing the menu too, just let me know what you think it should be like. I will take it into consideration, just remember we don't want too many levels, so weapon and items can be 2 separate items. Thanks for your help here Slyrat! - XPhoenix777 16:10, October 21, 2009 (UTC) ---- I doubt there is a reason why Category:Assault Rifles has been presented as a plural. I suggest that all categories be either singular or plural, so that we don't start seeing a mix of both. -- WarBlade 23:24, October 21, 2009 (UTC) :Update: I've been seeing a similar thing happening with the weapon articles and have started shifting the content from the plural named article pages to fresh pages with the same names singular form. Redirects left at the old page names ensure no broken links and also future searchability. I'm uncertain about some of the terminology (still waiting for PC release on Steam) such as how pistols are structured (Revolvers a subcategory?) or what the distinction is between "Assault Rifle" and "Combat Rifle", so can't reliably complete the task just yet. -- WarBlade 00:44, October 22, 2009 (UTC) :The general Manual of Style is that categories are always in plural. For example there would have to be Category:Shotguns instead of Category:Shotgun. We don't have Category:Weapon, do we? --Gourra (talk) 00:27, October 28, 2009 (UTC) ---- I think we are digging ourselves a hole with the damage types. As a suggested example "Corrosive" might be better off as "Corrosive Damage" or "Corrosive damage" (note casing). I can redo all of those if people agree... -- WarBlade 00:50, October 22, 2009 (UTC) ---- Repeater is the title of the pistols and revolver is a revolver. As far as damage goes, there should be one page dedicated to damage types and what they do, since any damage type can be on any gun, to the best of my knowledge. I don't know what to tell you about categories, now that they are in place we are going to have many empty categories if we switch it up too much. It should be decided what is going to be done though, to prevent that from happening.- XPhoenix777 03:18, October 22, 2009 (UTC) ---- I've had a rethink on my suggestion about the damage types. It would probably be best to just stick with the single word as it is currently being done, although the "bullet" damage type might still pose a disambiguation problem. As for empty category pages, I agree it is probably best to try and standardise the system before many more weapons get categorised. -- WarBlade 04:34, October 22, 2009 (UTC) ---- Think I posted this in the wrong place and should be suited here: Just a quick thought in regards to the weapons section, rather than listing all the weapons (because there's a bazillion of them lol) perhaps it might me worth listing the effects for each weapon and possibly some blurb about why to use this type of weapon, strengths and weaknesses E.G. Shotgun Strengths: Good damage Weaknesses: have to be very close or lucky in how the pellets fly Effects Ride the wave: Fires blue pellets in a horizontal line that 'wave' across the ground, useful for fighting multiple targets at close to medium range. Strengths: Good against multiple targets Weaknesses: weak damage as pellets spread too far As a very brief idea - Dudibob 11:12, October 22, 2009 (UTC) ---- So I was the one that put most of the existing gun sub-categories in place. I think if we have the description of the types of weapon that fall into a category like Shotgun placed on the category page it should help things. Having the non-category page link to the category page, or be in the same category can help this too. Otherwise we may need to just have a damage type page that lists all the various ones possible in the game. Otherwise I've also been trying to add the Items category to anything that isn't gun-related. --Slyrat 13:27, October 22, 2009 (UTC) ---- Looking good, I am decently busy til this weekend, at which point I can help make things do what you need them to do. Leave a list on my page and I can start helping when I get time! - XPhoenix777 17:57, October 22, 2009 (UTC) ---- More depth to badass elemental types should be added. I can't get my copy until I'm paid on the first so I'm kind of out of the loop for the moment. I agree with Dudibob's idea on weapon description. However storyline named guns may be a good thing to keep. E.G the clipper as well as Sledge's shotgun (assuming it is named). We could have the weapon class have a "named storyline gun" piece for guns such as these that do not change that would redirect to a page similar to the weapon pages we have now. Personally though, if we did this I would have the manufacturer in a descritor piece rather then in the name for them as it makes the guns keep their unique feeling. LegendStormcrow 01:48, October 23, 2009 (UTC) ---- I'm not good at wiki at all, but I can contribute alot of weapons. If anyone has a template I can use, that would be great. --Icekirby 15:06, October 24, 2009 (UTC) ---- Honestly, you're all going about this in the wrong way. Since there are so many different weapons that can be generated, you're obviously not going to list every single one in here... you'd be better off getting the weapon's base model/manufacturer, listing those in the weapon main threads, and then having a sub category under weapons for the modifiers. Quest loot should get it's own set of categories as well since they have different stats based on the different playthroughs. User:McHearty 03:07, October 25, 2009 (UTC-7) ---- Well McHearty, most of us had already decided this was the wrong way. As for your idea for a weapon sub catagory for modifiers, that may be a good idea. We already have a manufacturer page, it already exists but may need more focus. I still like the idea of having the permanant weapons such as the clipper posted though. LegendStormcrow 17:50, October 26, 2009 I've never used a "wiki" before, but i was browsing around looking for borderlands information and I stumbled across your website, personally I think it is set up great, I could find the information I needed quickly and easily. There are alot of missing parts though, but I realize that is mainly because no one has managed to collect everything yet. Once I figure out how to do this wiki business I'll contribute my personal findings to wherever they are desired. Thanks, and keep up the good work ^^^ ---- Any specific information we have missing that we could possibly round up? --Aelwrath45 06:37, October 28, 2009 (UTC) BRIKZ 03:59, October 29, 2009 (UTC) ---- Hey guys i really appreciate what you all are doing here, and i apologize if this is not in the right spot but i am not sure where else to put it. I just started the game and i don't have the instruction manual (so maybe that would have helped me). This wiki has so much of the more in depth and detailed info on the weapons covered, but i just need to understand what the symbols and info on the weapons description mean. For example, where it says damage with either an arrow up or down what does that mean? Does it mean the damage the weapon does compared to your current weapon, or how much damage is done to the weapon or etcc....??? Also, in the damage line it has a number and then x (another number)? And what are the numbers under the maker of the weapon for ex. level requirement 4 HLk-8 Incendiary Rifle damage 15 Tediore Highly effective vs Flesh 12 Chance to light enemies on fire x2 What does that mean? I did read the maker levels and the color levels ( and that was helpful),but i haven't found one of the writing ones yet.(at least not from the list on here). Please if you can PM me here or even better email me at hoag34@hotmail.com with either the direct answers or links or copies of manuals that can help me out..... I am getting frustrated with the game bc i don't understand this part and i keep having to buy different weapons bc the ones i substitute aren't better than the ones i replaced.... THANKS IN ADVANCE and hopefully once i get this down i can actually add and benefit the wiki! BRIKZ 03:59, October 29, 2009 (UTC)BRIKZ The x2 means it does double fire damage, the arrows are comparisons to your current weapon (damage is MAX damage, e.g. if a shotgun has 70 x 5, it will list more damage than a sniper rifle with 300 dmg, even though in reality the sniper probably does more damage per shot more often), and if your last question was about red writing in weapon descriptions, the answer lies at the Weapons page. --Aelwrath45 04:04, October 29, 2009 (UTC) ---- Anyone have any thoughts on what we're going to do about all these random generic weapons pages popping up for every single weapon users encounter? Hopefully it's been agreed on by the general community that it is entirely futile to try to document all 17.5 million possible combinations, yet users are still posting EVERY weapon they encounter! These pages also tend to be disorganized and wrongly categorized. Should we adopt a zero-tolerance policy for these pages, or simply let them happen, or what? --Aelwrath45 16:16, October 29, 2009 (UTC) ---- I'll admit, it is a tricky situation. On one hand, you want lots of people contributing the wiki. On the other hand, you don't want a lot of mis-categorized and/or uncategorized pages. Since the Weapons article is the featured page for weapons (linked to from the sidebar) and because it focuses on the basics (types, effects, rarity, etc.), my thoughts are to lean toward "let them happen" rather than "zero-tolerance". Meaning I'd rather let people create the pages as a way of contributing to the wiki in some way, which may lead to them becoming good, active edtiors, instead of deleting every "normal" weapon page and risk running new users away from the wiki. Obviously a middle ground approach would be ideal, but finding that middle ground might be tricky. One thought is to create a Manual of Style (use the one at the League of Legends Wiki as a good example) as a way of introducing new users to the wiki's editing policies and link to it from MediaWiki:Sitenotice (the message that appears at the top of most pages). As for correcting weapons pages that appear in the wrong category, that's something that we'd want to do (not necessarily as a top priority), and I'd be glad to help with that, but for uncategorized weapon pages, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Again, I could help with that too, while you guys take care of more important things. Having said all of that, I encourage everyone else to share your thoughts as well. JoePlay (talk) 21:44, October 29, 2009 (UTC) ---- Just a quick heads up... Using my bot account, I moved all articles being displayed in the singular form of weapons subcategories into the plural form. For example, Category:Pistol -> Category:Pistols, Category:Sniper Rifle -> Category:Sniper Rifles, etc. I know it was discussed before, and the general rule is that for category names that are nouns, the correct way is to use the plural form. So I took care of it. JoePlay (talk) 23:09, October 29, 2009 (UTC) ---- Can we please get a category on the side of all the pages, whatever that thing is called over there <---, for the grenade mods, class mods, shield mods, etc? Qwiggalo 00:45, November 2, 2009 (UTC) Items -> Class Mods Grenade Mods Shield Mods Grenades Artifacts Repair Kits Whatever Else Would Go Under Items On the topic of the random weapons, I think that the only weapons that should have actual pages are ones that do something apart from ordinary weapons. A weapon that fires a strange bullet pattern or has flavor text are definitely worthy of their own page, while weapons that just have good stats shouldn't, otherwise the category pages will be filled with random weapons. Also, would the flavor text section of the weapons page be better off in its own page? It certainly has gotten large enough. In addition to that, does a line of flavor text appear in different weapons, or are these a per-weapon. Like the "Pele demands a sacrifice!" flavor - is this only on the maliwan volcano? Because if this is the case, then I don't think the flavor texts need their own page - this can just be a section on the weapon's page. Zaybertamer 17:01, November 2, 2009 (UTC) ---- Qwiggalo, thanks for the Items sidebar suggestion. I just added it/them. JoePlay (talk) 19:42, November 2, 2009 (UTC) ______ I hope im doing the right thing in the the Category and sub cats and i tried to read it all but the categorizes should be plural and the wiki articles singular e.g. pistols, combat rifles, sniper rifles Dreag2121 04:11, November 9, 2009 (UTC) ---- Ok so I am looking around and i see some weapons show more than one variation on it (i have acute OCD) and The Spy and Sledge's Shotgun are ok for that, but do we want to do with the orions they have different models and material grades? -NoBody Dreag 05:59, November 11, 2009 (UTC)